Originally Aired: March 7, 2017
IN MY FIFTEEN YEARS AS A COUPLES THERAPIST, I WITNESSED LOTS OF MARRIED COUPLES WORKING THROUGH ANY NUMBER OF ISSUES THEY’VE COME TO SEE ME FOR. AND ONE OF THOSE ISSUES IS INFIDELITY. THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY ONE OR BOTH PARTNERS IN A RELATIONSHIP CHOOSE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR, OR CHOOSE TO STEP OUT OF THE RELATIONSHIP. IT COULD STEM FROM LONELINESS, UNMET NEEDS, FEAR OF CONFLICT, OR FEAR OF INTIMACY. IT WAS MY JOB TO HELP COUPLES SURVIVE AND MOVE BEYOND THE AFFAIR. THEY WERE LOOKING TO ME FOR ANSWERS.
MUCH OF THE TIME I’M FIGURING OUT HOW TO HELP THEM. ALSO, TO FIGURE OUT IF THEY WANT TO STAY TOGETHER, OR SHOULD THEY STAY TOGETHER.
IN THIS EPISODE WE HEAR FROM SHANNON AND CINDY. THEY’RE A COUPLE THAT THOUGHT OUTSIDE OF THE BOX WHEN GETTING THROUGH THEIR INFIDELITIES.
Shannon: I just wanted to find the extent that it was, was it multiple? Was it all the time? Was it in our home? For me I guess it’s like a level of disrespect in a sense and it may be, double standard or whatever but I look at it like, you know, certain things I would not do.
Cindy: It did hurt me when you did tell me about your multiple affairs after you proposed to me and you know that, that hurt me because you volunteered the details which I didn’t want to know the details but you volunteered them to me. And I know it was because we were in a space where we wanted to hurt each other.
ALSO IN TODAY’S EPISODE, I TALK WITH ALEX BOGUSKY ABOUT HOW TO ADVERTISE WHAT HAPPENS IN REAL LOVE.
Alex Bogusky: Love is almost like a Viagra commercial I think. You “are” the guy, and it’s always this hot 40-year-old woman who’s taken this guy away for a weekend. That Viagra commercial is the promise of that, intimate, highly sexual, early stage relationship.
MY NAME IS ANDY HORNING, AND THIS IS ELEPHANT TALK. IT’S ABOUT ALL THINGS RELATIONSHIP – THE SOULFUL, THE SILLY AND THE SEXY.
CINDY Our whole relationship started- it started off great but then not even four months into our relationship I become pregnant!
It was actually a shock to me because I had a son that was graduating high school, I had another son that was in the ninth grade of high school. And then trying to place myself, an independent person, to the total care of another human being that I’d only being dating for a few months was very difficult.
It wasn’t a fun period, just knowing that we were both tired and we had to sit down and actually figure out if we wanted to be in this relationship. It probably took a good two years. I think we’re at a happier place.
SHANNON I’m going to be real. When you get pregnant I remember we sat down in the kitchen and I said, you know ‘well… this is what is going to be, me and you, I remember that clearly, I could feel the cold on the granite counter, and we hugged, and you cried, I said ‘we’ll go make this, you know’ and you immediately moved [Laughter].
CINDY I immediately moved in.
SHANNON You moved up all your stuff.
CINDY I sure did; my cat first.
SHANNON We were together however, I was still immature, I still wanted to go out to the parties, I still wanted to go out and hang out, I still wanted to be a separated man,
CINDY That backstory is partly what led to my infidelity because staying out till three, four o’clock in the morning, hanging out and, getting text messages you were sending emails and I called you on it, we took a walk around the block while your best friend was watching our daughter. I was asking you ‘what is going on!’ Like, ‘Why do you still feel the need to be engaged with other women, you know?
CINDY I was feeling like well, shoot! He still out there, I’m not being treated how I wanted to be treated so I’m going to get the attention where is being given to me.
Moving forward when you found out about my affair and that not only was it an emotional affair, that it was actually a physical affair and you wanted to know specifics details.
SHANNON I just wanted to find the extent that it was, was it multiple? Was it all the time? Was it in our home? For me I guess it’s like a level of disrespect in a sense and it may be, double standard or whatever but I look at it like, you know, certain things I would not do.
I would flirt a lot and I wouldn’t necessarily- because I know what is to close a deal – you know, have sex with a person is different from just flirting, that was the information I wanted how far did it go, you know?
CINDY It did hurt me when you did tell me about your multiple affairs after you proposed to me and you know that, that hurt me because you volunteered the details which I didn’t want to know the details but you volunteered them to me. And I know it was because we were in a space where we wanted to hurt each other.
SHANNON Like, to get through infidelity you have to be creative.
SHANNON You have to be kind of creative and think outside of the box because we did some outside of the box
SHANNON thinking too.
CINDY Yeah, we did. We continuously have conversations about our relationship and our evolving relationship and what do we want out of our relationship, and what are our boundaries and our relationship, what does our relationship look like.
So, that’s one part that we did take away positively from both of our infidelities, about moving forward and having that constant communication going and being open about what we feel and being open about or likes and dislikes, and being open about things that other people would be too scared!
SHANNON I think it gave me realization like a smack in the face to say, ‘This is a woman and she has the same powerful desires and forces working in your body and are working in her body too, just in different ways and you have to respect that.’
CINDY You, generally, are machisimo man, Christian, God fearing, conservative, that’s you background, that’s not my background; my background is liberal, hippy flowing, California raised, we just have different backgrounds so to mash those backgrounds together and find a happy balance it has been tough but we found it.
SHANNON I do sometimes- I don’t know if I’m worry about infidelity but I – somebody flirting with you- because I’d tell you, I’d be like ‘That lady was all up on my grill when we were at the thing.’ When you don’t talk is more like ‘What?’
CINDY But I think that you think that it happens way more than when it does happen, like, it doesn’t [Laughter] people are not flirting with me at all.
SHANNON I mean, it no matter if it did or didn’t, I just be wanting to let the communication flow, not hold it back. That’s part of what got us through this situation, because we just started to communicate about everything. I could tell you anything.
SHANNON I feel if I don’t say anything I could threaten losing the –
CINDY What we worked so hard for.
SHANNON But I felt like what am I hiding something that I could just tell her and she’d probably won’t hide my head off, you know, what I’m saying? Not necessarily you’re going to be ok with everything but you’re not going to bite my head off.
SHANNON I do feel like, though, you hold back from me. You wait till the last second to tell me something sometimes.
CINDY Yeah, I have done that a lot in the past but I have not being doing it recently.
SHANNON Not this year but… probably this year you didn’t.
CINDY For me, for me, for me, I would have waited until next week and been like, uh – [LAUGH]
– BREAK –
ANDY/HOST In my experience in working with couples working around an affair it’s not easy to talk about what happened and, in particular, why it happened. Shannon and Cindy showed tons of courage as they go right there to the very issues that led to it. I found it refreshing and a little unusual.
– BREAK –
SHANNON Well, you know me, I like to fight [Laughter] not- I don’t like to fight but I can say certain things that can turn into a fight and I’m going to be honest with you, that’s the thing that I loved about you just early on in our relationship and I’m trying to get better because say a certain thing that just can strike a chord and if you’re not a person who can just like let it die down, it’s going to turn into a big fight and I didn’t even mean for it to be a big fight because I just said ‘Don’t put the shoes over,’ you know? And you usually just defuse that most times or sometimes you’d be like ‘You put your shoes wherever you want your shoes to go.’
CINDY You love to push and sometimes I let the buttons not get pushed but sometimes I’m just tired, I’ll fire back at you. I think that you’ve been getting a lot better at not saying things to push a button just because you’re stressed out, I think that you found other avenues to relieve your stress like the gym or going for a walk around the block.
SHANNON I felt like if I wasn’t as fiery or something, we’d probably can have a fightless relationship, I like a little conflict. But, you’d be bailing out, like you just to- and that’s the most annoying thing in the world for you just so like turn into, like, a freaking mannequin like nothing would come out.
CINDY Because I don’t want to fight! Ok, Shannon, so what. Because sometimes when you’re fighting, you say nasty things. If I were to say nasty things back at you, we would not be together. So it’s better for me to shut my mouth and become a mannequin than engage back with you with a fight just to prove that I know how to fight. I don’t want to fight and if there is not better way of communication than there’s no reason to speak and I’m going to become void, and I’m going to become silent and I’m just going to stare straight ahead and bite my lip so that I don’t say anything mean because I understand that the knife is a double edge sword.
SHANNON But see, I think we need a comfortable in between on that. But, for us to be able to have that conversation where we might not see eye to eye on something but we can have a conversation, we can talk it out, you know.
CINDY That’s a conversation and there is a debate, and there is a back and forth and that’s different than saying smart shit because you’re upset about something and that’s a passive aggressive way to get out with what you’re really feeling, it’s two totally different concepts.
SHANNON I just want, I’ve been wanting a conversation
CINDY I can be very silent. I can literally walk through my whole household and entire week and not say a word except for ‘Are you ready to eat?’ ‘Do you need anything from the store?’ And sometimes when I’m just like in my space of nowhere land [Laughter] it’s annoying.
SHANNON Well what I think though is I get tired of being the only one talking or I get tired of driving a conversation sometimes I’d be wanting, you know, for you to share something with me and you’re just being silent, you know? I think we need to figure out what are our connected subject and then we have that –
CINDY I don’t think our relationship was based on a friendship, our relationship was based on, filling voids and finding a connection and then we were thrown into a full-blown relationship.
SHANNON I think our topics now are family, future, but sometimes that’s kind of, you know, it gets kind of old.
CINDY Yeah, we have common interests like we like the same books or we like some of the same music or we love going out, we- do those things but actually talking about things. No, we’re talking about relationship, our relationship, we’re talking about our daughter’s education or we’re talking about the rearing of our child, as far as us finding something that we can talk about outside of gossip, I don’t –
SHANNON But that’s what I was looking at with learning about different wines and stuff like that. That kind of stuff interest me.
SHANNON You know, so if you- if you share with me about all this new wine or this – I don’t mind, I like that kind of conversation because now I feel like I’m learning something from you, you know – I mean, that’s kind of fun to me.
CINDY I think as for this year, we’ve been talking more about politics which is always I’ve always been passionate about which when me and your friends talk politics, you used to go to the other room and close the door!
– BREAK –
ANDY/HOST I relate to what Shannon and Cindy are talking about because in my own marriage I prefer conversation much more than my wife does. I’ll want to push and prod and bring up subjects, and talk much more than my wife does. She doesn’t have that high need for dialog. But, like them, we both have acknowledged that I need a little more silence, and maybe she needs a little more talking. So, it’s kind of moving towards the middle. I also notice they’re seeking common interests so that they’re not always processing the relationship. They’re beginning to talk about things they have in common.
– BREAK –
SHANNON Deep love and how I feel about you, I want to give you… I- I want to protect you.
CINDY You won’t even let me take the bus [Laughter].
SHANNON [Laughter] I want to make sure that you are comfortable, I want to make sure you feel good about yourself. I mean, I can’t really have control over that but at the same time I just want to provide for you.
Sometimes I feel like I have fallen short, you know, I don’t feel like I’ve put you in the best positions to be the most protected, but I want you to see the world with me, I want to provide a better life than you had, when I think about, I’d be thinking about standing in front of you and like taking the blows or jumping on the lion or something, and I love you in that kind of way.
The things that you’ve gone through in your life, you know, those things sometimes it made me really upset, you know, and I think about the challenges or the abuse, or the other things that you know, it made me upset because I want to go back and like fight your fights back then but you know I can’t.
CINDY I think both of us have the ability to see beyond. Relationships only get stronger when you fight through your trials and tribulations and make a resolution that, you know, we’re in this forever. We took those vows we made the choice that we were going to fight through our struggles and you’re always harder on yourself instead of seeing the achievements that you’ve done.
SHANNON But I think about the future and what I want to do in your future and then I think about the present, and sometimes I feel powerless in the present because I’m not best security, I haven’t provided the best. I feel powerless.
CINDY See the things that are a failure to you, to me they’re a success. And no, we haven’t had the best life but we have a happy life, we have a happy home, we have a happy daughter, we have a family around us and it’s all coming together now, you art is making a way for us and we’re going to be able to provide a legacy for our children. And so for me, my love is knowing that you’re sacrificing a lot of yourself to provide that legacy and provide that future for us, our children, our grandchildren and our family, I know you are doing that. And my love, my deep love for you comes from that. I’m always talking about you because I’m so proud of you and so proud of everything you’ve done and are doing, I’m always bragging about you [Silence].
SHANNON It gives me power for me to hear that you believe, you know what I’m saying, that you believe in us, you believe in me. That journey is exciting as well, you know, like [Laughter] the fact that you’ve been through it with me sometimes. I think on both of our ends, we could’ve chosen easy roads.
CINDY Of course, absolutely.
SHANNON Instead we looked at each other and said ‘We’ve got to work with what we are and move from there.’ And I think with that mindset we made it through the troubling times, and there have been times when you’ve told me from your heart, you know, that this is rough, that you’re going through rough times, and those times have been like probably my darkest times but at the same time we made it through so –
CINDY I know.
CINDY It’s just always good to have conversations with you, Shannon, I love expressing how much I love you, how much you mean to me and, knowing that I’m here, I ain’t going nowhere. So, we just need to figure out the best way to make it happen and make it through, and I know it’s going to happen.
Yeah, we’ve been through a lot of stuff that other people would not have survived; and our foundation is solid, nobody can break our foundation except for us.
I just love you and I’m glad that if anybody I’m going through this with a strong man, somebody that knows how to lead and does not take advantage of leading his household and I love you for that.
SHANNON It’s always to hear your thoughts and sometimes I’d be wanting to hear more from you, the feelings that you have. And I think today you shared some and I want to continue to hear more.
SHANNON Like that’s why I document so much stuff because I’d be enjoying it, this moment, right now, you know, this is like a moment, you know, and this is like a good thing.
This is fun, this is enjoyable, to talk to you, to see you face, to see you in front of me so gorgeous and listening to your words and when you talk about believing in me, I don’t know, for me that just, that turns me on immensely and then just hearing like, us talking about going through the hard times, and the struggles and all that kind of stuff and then it being funny now. That kind of stuff is like- I just love it, you know, I hope we have more conversations and I hope you share more and more and I hope we find those commonalities.
We’re just both learning about this together, the whole beer thing like we’ve been learning more about beer, and enjoying beer, and all that kind of stuff so it’s to have those situation where we can enjoy it and have more conversations about it and we can have those connections like I have with my hip hop friends, like I have [Laughter] my comic book friends or whatever, we can have those kind of conversations.
CINDY I really believe that I’ve been making progress in communicating with you more and letting you hear my voice more. Sometimes it’s just tough because I’m the best extroverted introvert you’ll ever meet. I like silence. I like being in a world of my own. But I think that I’ve been coming around to trying to meet your needs and trying to engage more, you know, coming to your office and giving you a hug or a kiss or just trying to start some type of conversation. I think that I’ve been trying to do that more and what you’re saying is you need a little bit more of that from me. So, just like you’re taking baby steps with the housework, I have to take baby steps with opening my mouth more.
SHANNON Just genuinely, you know what I’m saying? Just genuinely, you know?
CINDY It’s not going to be genuinely. I have to prepare myself to…
SHANNON Yeah, and I do have to take silence too, because sometimes I talk to myself in the car and I’d get mad, like ‘Ok, why are we silent for fifteen minutes?’ You know, I’m doing calculations on how long we’re silent, you know, and instead just enjoy the silence myself.
CINDY Well, you want to be entertained every twenty seconds. That’s the difference.
SHANNON [Laughter]. I get bored.
CINDY I want us to be happy and I want you to be happy and in reality it’s a small compromise, you’re asking of me to talk to you and that’s not a huge compromise it’s just something that I have to watch a YouTube video and find out the best ways to deliver [Laughter].
SHANNON [Laughter]. You silly [Silence].
ANDY/HOST At one point earlier in their conversation, there was a level of tension between Shannon and Cindy, but, they did something that successful couples do, they showed persistence, a willingness to continue, to hang in there to get to the other side. They also showed an openness to what’s on the other side. What I find in my work with couples, they’re often surprised by this level of joy that comes as a result of working through it. Shannon and Cindy are an example of a couple that displayed both courage and kindness to themselves and to one another.
SHANNON AND CINDY TALKED ABOUT HOW MUCH THEY’VE WORKED THROUGH TO GET WHERE THEY ARE TODAY IN THEIR RELATIONSHIP. THEIR LOVE OF EACH OTHER SHOWS IN THEIR DEDICATION AND FOLLOW-THROUGH OF THE WORK.
ALEX BOGUSKY IS AN INVESTOR, ADVISOR, AND FORMER ADVERTISING CREATIVE DIRECTOR. I WANTED TO PICK HIS BRAIN ABOUT THE LACK OF TRUTH-TELLING MARKETING AROUND REAL LOVE.
ANDY As we talk about relationship and sort of this myth or romantic love, I’m curious about as a guy in advertising, what’s your experience about how we use love and romance and sex and…?
ALEX Wait, I’m stuck on the “myth of romantic love.” I didn’t know that that was a myth. We’ve got to talk about that also a little. [Laughter]
ANDY Okay, let’s stop there for a sec. We all fall in love and we all are intoxicated by romance and that aspect.
ANDY Lust and all the beauty of the beginning part of a relationship. And then at some point that romantic love dies only to give birth, hopefully – it doesn’t mean you don’t have romance in your life. It just means that all of that glorious chapter closes making way for another chapter, which is more a real love
ALEX It was never really my approach in advertising, it doesn’t fill me with, like, ‘Oh, we do these three things.’ There’s a kind of advertising which you call “aspirational,” show people things that they aspire to, you know, show people something that probably is unattainable, and then connect it to a product or a service. I fall prey to it, like, for some reason there’s no jacket that’s ever been the perfect jacket for me. I’m on this quest. I’ve stopped the quest.
ALEX But, boy, every time I thought this is the one. It’s a little like the perfect jacket would be the one that you could just adjust along the way, like, if you knew really well how to sew and to –
ALEX – modify a thing, that would be perfect, right? And that’s a lot like relationships, I guess, right? The perfect one is the one that you’re involved with and you work on hard enough that you can modify it for whatever challenges, you know, you and your wife or husband encounter.
ANDY The “adjustable jacket” metaphor.
ALEX The new jacket is never great.
ALEX But the better attitude whether to relationships or business is “This is going to be hard work.” It’s going to be a process,’ you know, and if you can fall in love with the process as well as the people, that’s pretty powerful.
ANDY Have you experienced that carryover between navigating your professional life and your personal life and the things you’ve learned professionally and applying that to your relationship?
ALEX Maybe just now on the show, but –
ANDY Yeah. In the moment.
ALEX Most of the things that I learned in my professional life I don’t think I applied to my personal life and I should’ve. And the number one thing that I learned is, like, it’s work and it’s supposed to be work and it’s work for everybody.
ALEX But, a lot of what brings you together are some things that can really mess you up in the long run, because you may fit because you’re willing to put up with certain things in each other that other people aren’t, and then that makes it really easy at the beginning, but it creates problems over time.
ANDY I wonder if we could apply that truth-speaking to relationships and, like, when you get married there’s a warning label, “Hard Work Ahead.”
ANDY Let’s just say it’s going to be hard and then you can begin the work of trying to figure it out, but if you fight the challenge of it when it shows up and hold to this myth of ease and romance –
ALEX I don’t know if you could really, because my friend does that. He basically says, ‘Look, I’m a shit show. Here’s all the things wrong with me. Here’s what you’re singing up for.’
ANDY He does this in his dating life?
ALEX In his dating, like, first thing.
ALEX Well, women just love it. I mean, they just fall all over him and…
ANDY That here’s a guy who’s willing to disclose right out of the gate.
ANDY All of it.
ALEX But it probably in part doesn’t matter to them because they’re in that romantic love too, right? That’s what I’m saying. You could disclaim yourself. You could start with the disclaimer.
ANDY And it still wouldn’t…because it’s so powerful.
ANDY How did you navigate? Like, your career was huge.
ALEX Why is it past tense? Why is my career…?
ANDY Is! I’m sorry… [Laughter]
ALEX But how did that affect the relationship…?
ANDY Yeah, like, how did it tear it?
ALEX It was really bad.
ALEX Travel was the biggest problem. I was gone at least half the time. That whole “absence makes the heart grow fonder” thing may be true for certain people – it wasn’t really true for Anna.
ALEX It wasn’t true for my daughter either. You know, when I stopped working so much and stopped travelling so much, this is sad, but it was also sort of wonderful, but for a year every day I could feel that we got a little bit closer.
ANDY It was like a slow thaw, melting.
ALEX Yeah. I would’ve never even realized it if I hadn’t had the opportunity to slow down.
ANDY Yeah, and the quality of all your relationships has changed as a result of it.
ALEX Yeah. When you get a hard time from your loved ones because you’re travelling, appreciate that. There’s a culture of the “road warrior”, that’s sort of self-fulfilling and you’re on the plane and when you’re with your friends and everybody’s like ‘They don’t get it. They don’t see why we’ve got to be out here. We’ve got to make it happen.’ But the reality is they’re right – you should be home more, and you should be thinking about ‘Well, how can I be home more?’ So you’re not necessarily in a place where you’re not going to travel in life, but appreciate those people that are kind of giving you a hard time about it.
ALEX When I decided I just was not going to travel. I thought, ‘Well, you can’t do business and not travel,’ and then I sort of challenged that assumption, like, ‘Wait, can you do it?
ANDY What have you done differently?
ALEX It’s just a part of my process. I say, ‘I will meet you anywhere in the world as long as it’s not east of 30th street or, you know, south of Baseline.’ So, it’s a small world.
ALEX What I would offer people is just challenge yourself when you have these assumptions about how you have to live to be successful or to have the things you want, because you may be wrong.
ANDY Don’t accept that status quo about what it takes.
ANDY How do you navigate the world of slogans? If we were to apply that to this sort of honesty and this truth-speaking and this warning around intimate partnership…
ALEX Love is almost like a Viagra commercial I think.
ANDY Say more.
ALEX The Viagra commercials are really interesting to me when I watch them – you never see the front of the guy.
ALEX They, because you “are” the guy and so you put yourself in the situation and…
ANDY It’s me.
ALEX It’s me and it’s always this pretty hot, like, 40-year-old woman who’s taken this guy away for a weekend. Every time he starts to turn, then you get more than just a quarter rear before it cuts, yeah. Love, I guess, is that romantic love is like that Viagra commercial. Like, that Viagra commercial is the promise of that, intimate, highly sexual, early stage relationship. Because you get the feeling those people in the…when you watch them, that doesn’t look like they’ve been together a super-long time. It doesn’t seem like they have kids together. There’s never, like, also some kids, you know?
ANDY Tugging at them or…
ALEX Tugging at them, yeah. So it would be fun to do a commercial for that kind of romantic love and then have the disclaimer, because the disclaimer would be all about the things that are to come, you know.
ALEX Yeah, the headaches, the fights, the tears, you know?
ANDY The sleepless nights if you have kids. But, you know, it’s not as if the promise of that kind of thing isn’t there. Through the work and through acknowledging that there is the work, and then doing the work, you actually get to this place of connection that is far beyond the romantic kind of connection you had. You get to this deep, sort of profound love.
ALEX That’s never advertised, right?
ANDY How can we advertise that?
ALEX I know. That would be interesting. How could you advertise that?
ALEX It’s very difficult to give someone advice that says, ‘Hey, skip that. Skip that thing that you think is really great right now and move onto this other thing that I’ve discovered.’ No matter how good that advice is, people have to be ready for it. Like, in your twenties, could you even be ready? Could you even care about, like, this bigger upside that’s out there if you work at it? I don’t know if you could. Some people could, for sure.
THAT WAS ALEX BOGUSKY, AN INVESTOR AND ADVISOR. TO LEARN MORE ABOUT MORE SOCIAL ENTREPRENEURSHIP VISIT ALEXBOGUSKY.COM.
THANK YOU TO SHANNON AND CINDY FOR SHARING THEIR STORY.
I HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU LISTEN TO SHANNON’S PODCAST HOMEMADE STORIES, ALONG WITH HIS APPEARANCES ON OTHER SHOWS LIKE THE MOTH AND SNAP JUDGMENT. TO HEAR SHANNON’S PODCAST VISIT SHANNONCASON.COM.
OUR PRODUCERS ARE LISA GRAY AND KIM POLETTI. OUR THEME MUSIC IS BY ROB BURGER. ADDITIONAL MUSIC BY REZA MANZOORI, RUBEN VAN ROMPAEY, COLFAX, AND PRETTYHOWTOWN. AUDIO PRODUCTION ASSISTANCE PROVIDED BY LESLIE GASTON-BIRD AND JOSH KERN.
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THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. I’M YOUR HOST ANDY HORNING. THIS IS REAL LOVE. THIS IS ELEPHANT TALK.