Originally Aired: February 14, 2017
Tracey: I was invited to play in the Dungeons and Dragons game. You were there and I was like ‘Oh! That’s that guy?’ Because your hair was kind of gross and you didn’t look as good without the eyeliner. And you were wearing the ugly silk shirt. Then over the course of several games our characters just started falling for each other. I think our characters started falling in love before we did.
Raven Wells: There is no better bait and switch that you could imagine of. Oh, just find the one and then settle down in the permanent honeymoon. And you’re good to go. That is like straight grade school Jack and Jill went up the hill naïve.
Host: MY NAME IS ANDY HORNING, AND THIS IS ELEPHANT TALK. IT’S A SHOW ABOUT ALL THINGS RELATIONSHIP – THE SOULFUL, THE SILLY, AND THE SEXY.
IN THIS EPISODE WE HEAR TRACEY AND SAM. FOR TWELVE YEARS, THEIR RELATIONSHIP HAS BEEN TESTED AGAIN AND AGAIN, WITH ILLNESSES, INJURIES, LOSS AND DESPAIR. TRACEY AND SAM HAVE BEEN TOGETHER FOR MORE THAN TWELVE YEARS. THEY’VE EXPERIENCED DIFFICULT TIMES THAT MIGHT HAVE CAUSED OTHER COUPLES TO BREAK UP. HOW IS THAT THEY MANAGED TO STICK TOGETHER FOR SO LONG? WE’RE GOING TO FIND OUT IT WAS SOMETHING UNDER THEIR NOSE THE WHOLE TIME.
ALSO IN TODAY’S EPISODE, I’LL BE TALKING WITH RAVEN WELLS. HE’S A LIFE COACH AND ORGANIZATIONAL CONSULTANT. WE DISCUSS WHAT HE CALLS OUR CULTURE’S GREATEST MYTH AND TRUEST RELIGION — ROMANTIC LOVE.
TRACEY AND SAM MET IN NEW YORK CITY, HE IN HIS TWENTIES, SHE IN HER THIRTIES.
Tracey: We met at a Halloween party and I was dressed as Medusa.
Tracey: And you were dressed as Captain Jack Sparrow with this groovy eyeliner and goatee and the beads, the whole shenanigans. You had that awesome thing that you were doing with your hands, you were pretending to be Johnny Depp. I thought you were cute and I flirted with you and you panicked and almost ran away.
Sam: True. It’s what I do.
Tracey: About a month later I was invited to play in the Dungeons and Dragons game. You were there and I was like ‘Oh! That’s that guy?’ Because your hair was kind of gross and you didn’t look as good without the eyeliner. And you were wearing the ugly silk shirt.
Tracey: Then over the course of several games our characters in this D&D game just started falling for each other. I was playing a cat warrior girl [Laughter] and you were a cool –
Sam: Elvin Thief.
Tracey: Elvin thief and… I think our characters fell in love before we did.
Sam: I remember being resistant to falling in love with you, you know, a young man, New York city, eight million people, I kind of figured there’s probably one or two million I could theoretically date and was, you know, looking forward to finding out what life is like at the big city and then just fell head over heels and didn’t know what to do about it, tried to handle it maturely by telling you that if I was awkward at the next game it was because I had feelings for you and were significantly more than a friend. But, I knew you had your hands full of those three or four guys you were dating at the time?
Tracey: It was two and a half.
Sam: [Laughter]. And eventually that led to the phone call!
Tracey: There I was, out with a group of friends for somebody’s birthday and I was encouraged by my friend to call the guy who had being trying to date me for a couple of months unsuccessfully.
Tracey: [Laughter] So I called you and… you said ‘I think I’m just going to stay in tonight.’
Sam: There I was, sitting in my tiny eight foot by nine foot Queens apartment, completely dead broke, playing videogames, un-showered, unshaven, just a wreck of a human being and the woman that I was just crazy about calls me out of nowhere, asks me out and I’m like, ‘I am a broke schlub, I’m not going out.’
Tracey: [Laughter] It’s not what you said, though! You were like ‘I’m just going to stay home.’ And then you confessed that you were kind of broke when I pressed you and then I offered to buy you a drink.
Sam: And that’s when all my ‘you’re going to get laid lights’ finally came on. Because that’s the connotation of ‘I’ll buy you a drink.’ So I got ready as fast as I could, [Laugher] by the time I got there, you were about three sheets. I came out of the subway, found the place, as I was crossing the street to get to it you came out of it and so as soon as I set foot on the curb you, out of nowhere, grabbed me and just started making out with me right there on the sidewalk.
Tracey: That was sort of the beginning of our physical relationship which is definitely gotten us through a lot of difficulties.
Tracey: From the very beginning of our relationship I feel like we have had things to struggle against, major stressors that would cause a lot of people maybe to separate.
Sam: You’ve seen the limits of my capabilities. There’s always so much that I can do and always so much that I can take without taking the time to recharge and early in our relationship it was really easy for me to present the best possible me for long stretches when we were together and then go home and just disintegrate for three or four days and just be… just horrible and unable to do anything, and then pull myself back together and go out with you again, and then go home and disintegrate. Then, as the relationship developed and you had me move in with you, I didn’t have anywhere to retreat to disintegrate and fall apart anymore. And so I just kind of turned into this rolling train wreck of a human being.
Tracey: Well, I wouldn’t say that you were exactly a rolling train wreck but, you know, getting fired from your job while we were living together, having to go to the ER because you had a hallucination that you were fired when you weren’t fired.
Sam: It wasn’t a hallucination so much as a memory error.
Sam: Difficulty differentiating reality from… the… stress fantasies. All right, so fair enough, I had a hallucination.
Tracey: [Laughter] So…
Sam: And all the conversations, I would bail out of, … fifteen to twenty minutes in when you had a lot more to say.
Tracey: Because I was upset, because you weren’t talking to me about what was going on with you and then you wouldn’t go to work. That was all incredibly frustrating,
Tracey: I remember being in the first apartment that we shared and, basically just kind of crying my eyes out. I think I was sitting on the bed behind that sheet that I hung in between the two rooms to give a little bit more darkness to the bedroom. Just feeling like you were constantly falling apart on me, that I couldn’t trust you to be there for me when I needed you, that if you said you were going to do something you didn’t do it because you forgot or because you got distracted by something, or because you just couldn’t and you couldn’t explain why. If I asked you to clean off the coffee table, if asked you to take care of the dishes, there was always some reason that you couldn’t, you couldn’t do this, you couldn’t do that ‘I can’t, I can’t, I can’t’ and I was just sick of it! I was so sick of hearing about all the things that you couldn’t do. And I- I wanted to be with somebody who was capable and I said ‘I- I can’t do this anymore.’ I just didn’t want to be stuck with you anymore because you were this malfunctioning person.
Sam: And it was all so painful and frustrating for me because I wanted so bad to follow through on the things that I said I was going to do but there were too many things and not enough structured, and I didn’t understand why I couldn’t keep track of it. And I didn’t know why when I tried to do something that should’ve been so simple it was just like gears grinding inside my head and wires melting, and everything going wrong. And the harder I tried the harder it got and the worst I felt. And I didn’t know what to do about it. And then seeing how much it hurt you and upset you and at the same time made me feel worse about my own inability, and it also made me upset at you because there were days when you couldn’t do things because of your depression, because of your anxiety and I always did my best to try to pull it together and take care of the stuff that you weren’t able to do. I felt hurt and betrayed by the fact that I would do all this, accept all of your weaknesses and shortcomings that it didn’t seem like you could do the same for me while at the same time I was conscious of the fact that for you weaknesses and shortcomings are like twenty percent and eighty percent keeping the place running, whereas I was eighty percent non-functional and twenty percent putting in the time. And I didn’t understand why I couldn’t and I couldn’t articulate it to you because I couldn’t articulate it to you, you couldn’t understand why I couldn’t and that looked like I just wouldn’t.
Tracey: I was crying and I… I think I was probably wearing like a tee shirt and underwear, sitting on the bed with my legs unshaven and my hair a mess just feeling like I couldn’t cope with our relationship anymore. And I imagined you were probably wearing your glasses and you were probably unshaven and…
Sam: Pajama pants and a tee shirt. Either I was sitting on the couch… gradually folding further into myself and like burrowing backwards into the cushions and at the same time my hands would just be like clenching into fists or claw shapes or whatever, or running across my head or tapping my fingers together because I couldn’t mentally process and so all these physical – I remember the anxiety would mount and I would feel my face flushed and my muscles were tensed and my guts would turn to acid. And there were all these things that I wanted to say and needed to say, and couldn’t find any words for at all.
Sam: Seeing you cry made me want to run over there and hold you because that’s how I am but not always the best idea when you’re angry at me.
Tracey: No. I didn’t want you to touch me, I didn’t want you to be anywhere near me and…
Sam: Which then made me feel hurt and shut off, and closed off.
Tracey: Then I had to take days off and try to get you into like a therapist’s office for the week to try to figure out what was going on with you.
Tracey: And in that summer while I was teaching at a camp on Long Island, I taught creative writing – there was that little girl’s mom who said, ‘I want to let you know my daughter is on the autism spectrum in case she does anything like speaking out of turn in class or if she’s really loud or she interrupts you,’ that had a lot more to do with her condition, I guess, than it did her being a rude child. And I said, ‘Oh! Ok, no problem’ but I had no idea what it was. And then later on in the same day, a mom said ‘Oh, my son has Asperger so just you know if he’s this way or that way, he’s really into dinosaurs and aliens just so you know if that’s all he can talk about here’s why.’ And I was ‘Ok, ok!’ So I went home and I started doing this research because I wanted to make sure that I could be there for these kids so that I would understand what their symptoms were, maybe I could find some strategies. There I was reading about these- these symptoms and these signs and I’m going ‘Oh, my God. Oh, my God! This- I’m married to this!’ [Laughter].
Sam: Up to that point, all the treatments had been for depression or generalized anxiety or social anxiety or ADD. And all the medicines just made me worst in a way or another.
Tracey: I resented when you needed me to take care of you because both of my parents were pretty self-involved and my mother had bipolar disorder and was incredibly depressed for a lot of my childhood and my father was an alcoholic who had major anger management issues. And they were both very limited in a lot of ways and here I found myself married to somebody who was also very limited. And, I just didn’t want to deal with it anymore. I mean, I spent my whole childhood dealing with it but I think that’s also like a denial of my own- my own limitations and a denial not wanting to accept that.
Sam: We just knew what was going on, we didn’t know what to do with it, how to deal with it, how to change about it, what change about ourselves, what not to change, how to feel about it! We didn’t even know how to feel about that yet.
Tracey: I think we did have the diagnosis by that point but it just- it hadn’t really made anything any better.
Sam: And, I was just like, ‘Finally, we know now, let’s- let’s figure this out! We can’t give up now. We have to figure this out.’
Tracey: I think you asked me for a year.
Tracey: You wanted a year to pull yourself together, or –
Sam: It was somewhere between being sure that I could find a way to leverage my neurology to my benefit to make the relationship better instead of worse. So much of it it’s just that you were just the best I have ever met.
Sam: Ever. I mean that. You are kind and caring, and giving, and brilliant, and funny, and a joy to be around, you are hopeful and optimistic. And you think the best of people while acknowledging still the world is bad, you’re not naïve, it’s just… you are fantastic and incredible, and you are everything that I was looking for and everything I didn’t know I was looking for. And the idea of losing you filled me with so much pain and fear, and panic, I could not let you go. I could not lose you. Finally knowing what was going on with me after all these years, I needed- I needed a chance to prove myself to you.
Sam: For me there have been three aspects to what the diagnosis has done to improve not just my life but our relationship. There is the aspect where it’s made holding a job so much easier and not having losing my job stress hanging over our heads, it has been… I don’t know, I think it has been really good for helping keep us healthy. There is the fact that you knowing and understanding what’s going on with me helps you see my behaviors and my reactions as symptoms of my mental and emotional condition, and it helps you react accordingly. There have been so many times, especially lately, that I haven’t realized how bad of shape I’ve been in and then you put your hand on my shoulder and asked me if I needed to do something to make myself feel better or to get out of a situation and –
Tracey: Do you need to take a walk?
Sam: I have been so grateful for your help with that.
Sam: And then also just knowing and understanding within myself what’s going on with me and what my limitations are, it helps me not only not get into those horrible cycles of self-kicking when I can’t be the perfect husband for you, but it also helps me plan accordingly so that I can be a better partner for you.
Sam: Our chemistry and physical compatibility have really just been the binding bridge that has held everything together through thick and thin.
Tracey: It seems like as long as we can have sex, fairly regularly, there aren’t too many problems that we’re not able to surmount but –
Sam: When the problems get bad enough to start interfering with our sex life, it just spirals.
Sam: Until one of us manages to pull it out and is like ‘Right! No! We need to go to bed now!’
Tracey: [Laughter] That doesn’t happen,
Sam: There have been a few time where I have kind of pushed the reset button on things or you’ve been in just terrible head space and bad emotional state, and angry about things or upset about things, and you didn’t even know why you were upset, and you told me you didn’t even know why you were upset, you were just freaking out, and I’m like ‘Right! Ok then.’ Then it’s just a matter of leading you back to bed or whatever we happened to be at the time.
Tracey: Orgasms make everything better.
Sam: They really do!
Sam: It’s somewhere between just the brain chemistry and the fact that it reminds us of how everything started.
Sam: We’re twelve years into this relationship now and the chemistry has not declined in the slightest. Every time we kiss it is crazy hot. And we…
Tracey: Not every time!
Sam: Well not every, every time but you now, it hasn’t toned down at all.
Tracey: It’s still there.
Sam: We get grabby really fast.
Tracey: We still got it.
Tracey: I mean, I think it makes me appreciate you more as a partner [Laughter].
Sam: It is one of my highest value offerings.
Tracey: Oh, stop! Not true, you’re also a cash cow.
Sam: That’s true.
Sam: I love how far we’ve come. I love the fact that we’re able to look back and talk about these things, that we’re able to see all of these rough spots, and these trials and these difficulties that we’ve had and not see just the pain that we’ve gone through and the trouble that we’ve had but see the way that each of us individually and the two of us as a couple. We’ve banded together, we’ve refused to let these things beat us. And I feel like this relationship just really brings a lot that feeling for me, it reminds me of how much we’ve done and how far we’ve come, to how far we’re going to go and how much we’re going to continue to do to build our love together.
Tracey: [Sighing] I feel grateful, that we’ve come so far after going through so much, even though I wanted to give up, uhm, on our relationship, and I wanted to give up on life a couple of times where I felt like if our relationship couldn’t be happy than I couldn’t be happy and that I might as well just not exist. You know, antidepressants are a hell of a thing, but so is love, and so is being with somebody who accepts you for not only all the wonderful things you are but also loves you through the terrible things, too. And I’m just incredibly grateful that you didn’t let me walk away.
Host: In one point towards the end of the conversation, Sam talks about building our love together, and, their willingness, their commitment, their desire, to build their love together – not to do it perfectly – that they allow mistakes in their marriage, in their relationship. They continued to endeavor towards something more. Through living life together, they make each other better.
Host: TRACY AND SAM APPROACHED THEIR DIFFICULTIES FROM FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES. LIFE COACH RAVEN WELLS SAYS THAT CAN BE USED AS A STRENGTH IN RELATIONSHIPS INSTEAD OF A WEAKNESS. HE SAYS, IN GENERAL, MEN ACCESS AND EMBODY INTELLECT WHILE WOMEN EMBODY THEIR EMOTION. HIS PRACTICE WITH COUPLES ALLOWS EACH PARTNER TO DISCOVER BOTH SIDES OF THEMSELVES.
Raven: The couple will come in and start describing what’s going on. And the man will present his “This is a logical problem.” He’s not saying I’m really upset or it’s just, “here’s my logical assumptions, here’s what needs to be done,” and it’s very mental.
Raven: Usually the woman will speak to the pain of that, the emotional impacts. Then in that, there’ll be a tension between them and this is a natural sort of diagnostic so to speak is you are just too intellectual. You don’t care. You are just too messy and emotional and I can’t deal. You get into these struggles that are all based on the assumption that these expressions are only in the other person.
Andy: In my experience as a therapist and I think sometimes in my own marriage that once that division happens, it only gets reinforced because I look at you over expressing this quality and I go, “Are you kidding? I need to be even more rational. And you look at me as this hyper heady guy and you say, ‘I’m the only person that’s being emotional here,’ that’s why I have to. In fact, I’m going to amp it up even more.”
Raven: And most of that is unconscious. It’s not even I’m going to have to amp it up. It’s from a systems perspective as one pipe closest off, the other opens even more.
Andy: I’m not even aware that I’m being influenced in this system and yet, the system is driving me.
Andy: It’s not me and it’s not you. It’s the system. It’s like this third energy.
Raven: It is. There is a third entity. In my mind, there are the two people and there’s the relationship.
Andy: There’s data on some level to reinforce why I’m being this way. In other words, I’m not crazy. Look at these things happening.”
Raven: If you’re steeped in assumptions of separateness, you would look at things through sides, like either he’s right or she’s right. What you look at is there’s intelligence being expressed on behalf of the relationship on both sides. It’s valid intelligence on both sides, but they in their roles have lost the ability to hear and distribute this and find their own version of that intelligence and inhabit it.
Andy: Where do you go with it, for example, the too heady men and the overly emotional woman?
Raven: We would do an experiment. And it would be for one of the two parties to take their part of that language is in there. Your version of what the other party is expressing. It doesn’t matter. I might start with the woman and say, “For a moment, I’m going to ask you to give no attentions to the emotional element of this and give me your best understanding of what’s going on here.” So she’ll start, “He’s this and I’m that and this leads to this.” And as she does more often than not, the man will start to feel a little. I’m not directing him to. I’m not prodding that. As she holds the intellectual his access to the emotional will start to open.
Andy: Just automatically happens?
Raven: Just automatically. It’s a system’s thing, right? You’re opening one pipe. So the pressure for all the analytic part to go through him eases and the emotions are no longer going through her. So they got to go somewhere.
Andy: Do you love watching that happen in real time?
Raven: I love watching it.
Andy: One of the things I love so much about intimate partnership is it poses perhaps these most fundamental challenges which are, “How do I be me while at the same time connecting with you?” It’s so challenging because there’s so much enmeshment. And yet if I’m too independent and too autonomous, then I’m not connecting and so there are so many pitfalls on this road towards intimacy
Raven: This concept of in the enmeshment where I’m only okay if you’re okay. But in a healthy differentiated place in that middle ground, there’s a sense of intimacy as, “This is my experience in this moment and I can be with it without having to change it and I can be with you without you having to change your experience. And we can be here together in experiences that are different.” But the intimacy is in the presence.
Andy: And I imagine you just hit that in about thirty seconds and it was pretty clear and yet I imagine the practice of that.
Raven: Oh, it’s years! I deeply respect there is no force on the planet that pulls people out of that capacity like intimate dynamics. The only thing that prepares you for intimacy is intimacy
Andy: I think some of this language that pushes into a more uncomfortable place, also needs an advocate for its sacred space to say, “Wait a minute. This is actually productive, efficient, effective.”
Andy: So Raven, you’ve used the word edge. When we use that word, what’s your understanding of edge?
Raven: There’s a great quote that I won’t be able to say verbatim but it’s something along the lines of our greatest growth happens at the edge of resource and challenge. If you stay within a comfortable range, you won’t grow. And if you go too far, it’s like a muscle, building a muscle is a great analogy, going to the gym and you lift a weight, you’re challenging it, you’re bringing it to its edge without injuring it.
Andy: You’re breaking it down on some level but not to the point where it can’t repair itself.
Raven: Exactly. And in our humanity if you want to taste the fullest potential of what you can feel, see, be conscious of in this lifetime – Then you have to work your edges. You have to come out and work on things to the point where you’re uncomfortable, where you’re seeing outside of where you saw before where you’re stretching.
Andy: I imagine failing is a key piece in that where you’re tripping and falling and getting back up again and tripping and falling.
Raven: Yeah, it’s one of the sadnesses I have about us is once we’re socialized and we’re adult, we largely approach failure and learning processes as something we don’t want to participate in and something to avoid.
Andy: Let’s do anything but that.
Raven: Yeah. We don’t want to lose social face. We don’t want to compromise being together.
Andy: And in fact, what do you know to be true around that?
Raven: It’s that we could learn from children, right? Like if you watch a child learning to do something, there’s a beautiful uninhibited spontaneity that allows them, if you watch a baby learn to walk, it’s a messy process.
Andy: Lots of wipeouts.
Raven: Lots of wipeouts. Lots of falling down. Lots of bumps and bruises, but the advantage to get from crawling to walking comes only at the expense of that learning. Much of social interaction is, “Wow! That didn’t work. That spectacularly failed. Okay, let’s do it again.” No worries. They’re not as attached to having it together and their egos and their social identities, they’re freer to explore and therefore, they learn much faster.
Andy: You think they’re still ashamed associated with getting help or talking about what’s going on, what’s really going on?
Raven: In general, we still exist with a lot of assumption that if you’re seeking help it’s because you’re sick or you’re weak. There’s a lot of pathologizing. It’s silly when you think of it. It’s like if your car broke down and you’ve never work on an engine, you wouldn’t sit at home and try and fix it on your own. It’s incredibly inefficient and silly. You would find an expert who works on cars and understands the dynamics of engines and blah, blah, blah. I would venture to say that personal relationships are infinitely more complex than the most sophisticated engines you’re ever going to see. And yet, you have couples at home trying to fix them themselves with no outside support largely because the cultural norms are still suggesting that to do so is negative in some light.
Raven: Intimate relationship is one of the highest learning grounds there are, and rather than it being a reflection of your ultimate failure and your deep insecurities and all the rest of that, it’s the place where that kind of stuff gets to grow and learn and burn off, on your path to deeper capacity to love.
Andy: The dross that gets burnt off on your way, on your path to your deeper capacity to love.
Raven: I have a particular respect for intimacy bringing up our deepest core patterns that we picked up in our development, but then where conscious adults wonder around wondering, “How is it that I’m regressing like this with my partner? I don’t do this anywhere else.”
Andy: The false assumption it sounds like that’s made is that it’s you. I only do it with you, not with my friends. Therefore, I need a new partner.
Raven: Yeah, if I got a partner that was more like one of my friends everything would be okay.
Andy: Everything would be okay.
Raven: The great myth. There’s that other out there somewhere that you won’t have struggles with. Our culture’s main myth and truest religion that we pay the most attention to is that relationship working out in a honeymoon type style. It’s the dominant myth of our culture.
Andy: Did you call it a religion? The religion of romantic partnership?
Raven: There are a lot of people walking around and feeling like that will give them the fulfillment, the ultimate fulfillment, which to me is almost a religious approach. It’s a confusion that if you can get just the right circumstances with another person and a partner –
Andy: And just the right person.
Raven: And just the right person. It’s almost like that’s heaven. Everything works out. You get your wings and you’re good for eternity.
Andy: So I think of that soul mate being found –
Raven: And even in the being found, the myth is that once you find them, you’re done. you would never say, oh, as an entrepreneur, once you get your company opened, you’re done. You don’t actually have to run it.
Andy: Business will come to you.
Raven: Business will come to you. No. All you did was open the doors. All you did was start a process that now is going to take an incredible amount of work to succeed at.
Andy: I got to say, Raven, as you frame it that way, it’s like incredibly naïve.
Raven: It’s incredibly naïve. There is no better bait and switch that you could imagine of – oh, just find the one and then settle down in the permanent honeymoon.
Andy: And you’re good to go.
Raven: And you’re good to go. That is like straight grade school Jack and Jill went up the hill naïve.
Andy: And we’re still buying it.
Raven: Oh, we’re selling it, we’re buying it.
Andy: Trading in it.
Raven: Trading in it. It’s part of what makes it so hard.
THAT WAS RAVEN WELLS, COACH AND CONSULTANT. TO LEARN MORE ABOUT RAVEN’S WORK, VISIT CONVERGENCE3C.COM.
THANK YOU TO TRACEY AND SAM, AND RAVEN WELLS. TO LEARN MORE ABOUT LIVING WITH AUTISM, VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT ELEPHANTTALK.ORG.
OUR PRODUCERS ARE LISA GRAY AND KIM POLETTI. OUR THEME MUSIC IS BY ROB BURGER. ADDITIONAL MUSIC BY JASMINE BRUNCH, JOEY FEHRENBACH, MANELI JAMAL, RENA MANZOORI, SASHA MERKULOV, SVARA, AND PRETTYHOWTOWN. AUDIO PRODUCTION ASSISTANCE PROVIDED BY LESLIE GASTON-BIRD AND JOSH KERN.
IF YOU’D LIKE TO SHARE YOUR STORY OR COMMENTS, VISIT US AT ELEPHANT-TALK.ORG. SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST ON ITUNES, STITCHER, SOUNDCLOUD, OR WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCAST. AND THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. I’M YOUR HOST ANDY HORNING.
THIS IS REAL LOVE. THIS IS ELEPHANT TALK.